I work with hundreds of people and rarely get to meet them in person.

But I met Kathleen Hanover recently at the local Panera Bread shop and was blown away by her expertise on public relations know-how.

So I twisted her arm and got her to agree to an interview on PR copywriting.

***

Dean: You’re a public relations copywriter. What do you do, exactly?

Kathleen: I’d describe myself as a marketing expert who frequently uses the tactic of PR to help my clients reach their business goals. I see copywriting — all forms of marketing copywriting — as a marketing tactic as well. But here’s where the PR flavor of copywriting is different. It’s most successful when you serve multiple masters.

What do I mean by that?

Well, when I’m doing direct marketing copywriting — writing a sales letter or web content, for example — I’m communicating to my client’s target audience in my client’s voice. It’s very clear who my client is. My client is the person signing the checks.

However, when it comes to public relations, my “real” client is actually better served if I pretend to forget who’s signing the check. When I write PR copy, I write as though the journalist or editor is my client. I write to AP standards, the editorial standards used in most newsrooms.

I write interesting leads. I supply quotes from my client, my client’s customers, experts, and so forth. I try to find interesting, newsworthy angles that will make the news release appeal to the editor’s customers — the publication’s readers. In short, I write like a journalist, and I bend over backwards to make it easy for editors to run my news releases verbatim.

And it’s not uncommon for editors to do so. This strategy is most effective in smaller publications such as community newspapers. They’re always hungry for content, especially if they have few reporters on staff. But this strategy has even worked in publications as large as the Los Angeles Times.

Dean: I love that you ask yourself questions then answer them. You’re making this easy. So how did you get into the business? Is there a story?

Kathleen: There’s always a story, Dean!

Dean: Ha! Look who I’m talking to.

Kathleen: I got a job at the community arts council in Dayton, Ohio, and one of my responsibilities was promoting the fine art gallery that we managed. About every six weeks we’d mount a new exhibit, and I was tasked with writing a news release that was sent out to a tiny handful of editors and writers in the area. This was before the Internet.

Never having written a news release before, I went to the library and checked out a book on writing news releases. I followed the instructions in the book, and added a couple of twists of my own. I was astonished when my press releases started appearing almost word-for-word under the local art critic’s byline. It was a heady feeling to see my words in print, even after someone else’s name.

The rest, as they say, is history.

Dean: How specialized is PR copywriting?

Kathleen: It’s not the copywriting per se that is so specialized. As I said, I learned how to write a news release in about an hour with a book I checked out at the library. The mechanics are simple. The tough part is understanding PR strategy and what editors and reporters will consider to be newsworthy. The tough part is making a ho-hum product announcement relevant, timely, and appealing to a publication’s readers.

With public relations, it’s a two-part pitch — you have to convince the editor or journalist that your story will help them sell papers or airtime or whatever. Then you have to convince the reader or listener to read your story and take action based on the content of your release.

You have to answer that very basic question — “What’s in it for me?” — for everyone in the “food chain.” And the answer to that question will be different for everyone — your client, the editors, the journalists, and the readers or viewers or listeners.

If you can’t answer that question for everyone involved, you’re probably not ready to write the press release.

Dean: I follow you on Twitter and have noticed that you’re into politics and have other interests besides PR. How do you fit all that into your schedule?

Kathleen: As you may discern from the lateness of these interview answers, I often completely fail to fit everything into my schedule! I am passionate about a lot of causes that can be furthered and supported by public relations, so I probably say yes to too many volunteer projects. But I feel that PR is one of my superpowers, and I get a lot of satisfaction from using it for a good cause.

Dean: Superpowers. I like that. Kathleen, you’ve already said that you do more than just write copy. So what other services do you offer clients?

Kathleen: Because I have over 20 years of experience in both marketing and public relations, I have a lot of different tactics in my toolbox. Most of them revolve around copywriting — things like sales letters, web content, marketing collateral, tag lines and so forth — but I also do quite a bit of strategic work for clients.

Nowadays, there’s far less “vanity marketing” — the kind of self-congratulatory corporate flogging that was done to “create awareness.” Today, clients need every dollar to create results, not awareness. So I’ll look at a client’s business goals and budget, and create a marketing and PR strategy that should help them get the biggest bang for their buck. Then I’ll suggest an affordable, but effective, list of tactics for them to implement.

Sometimes clients have the internal resources to handle implementation, and sometimes they just scrape everything marketing-related off of their plate and onto mine. I’m fine with that.

Dean: What do clients want most from you? What are your most popular services?

Kathleen: In a nutshell, I specialize in persuasive communications that generate a desired response from the target audience. The most obvious example is direct response sales copy, where I’m actually attempting to close a sale with a sales letter or web content. But I also persuade people to take action with radio ads, video scripts, social media engagement, and of course, public relations copy.

I’d say that my sales copywriting is overwhelmingly the most popular service I offer. I simply love writing sales letters and fundraising letters, and I’ve attained ungodly response rates on some projects. It’s very satisfying — for both me, and my clients.

Dean: Years ago, a PR writer would type up a press release and mail it to reporters and editors. How has this changed?

Kathleen: Well, the distribution channels have changed, but this is still the most common way to get a news release published. Some journalists and editors will accept “pitches” via phone or social media, but I don’t know that the news release will ever become extinct. Someday it may be delivered via talking holograph, but I think press releases will always be a part of public relations.

Dean: What sort of things do PR writers have to know to be effective? Do you need a special degree or have a certain kind of experience?

Kathleen: I don’t have a degree in PR. In fact, I don’t even have a degree in marketing. My degree in directing and stage management certifies me to mount a production of Hamlet, but not much else. I’m entirely self-taught, and my methodology has always been the same. First, learn the theory. Then model other people who get results. Try new things. Keep the new things that work, ditch the things that don’t.

The single most important thing to understand, when you’re doing “traditional” PR, is that no one owes your client any coverage. In fact, no one owes your client the time of day. It’s up to you to develop your client’s story in such a way that it becomes “editorial” instead of “promotional.”

You need to be able to look at the bare facts and develop a story that meets your client’s needs for exposure, but — even more importantly — meets the goals of the editor, journalists, and even the publication or media outlet itself.

Dean: SEO is all the rage now. How does that tie into PR copywriting these days?

Kathleen: You know, SEO is an art and science, and so is PR. This topic really deserves its own interview, because in a way, it’s a separate discipline, and I approach it differently than I approach traditional public relations. So I’m going to punt on this one.

Dean: You’re one of the few copywriters I’ve actually met in person. Do you find the copywriting business to be a bit lonely?

Kathleen: You’re only about the second or third copywriter I’ve met in person! Copywriting, like any solo activity, can be a bit lonely. But when I’m connected to the Internet and getting emails, tweets and Facebook updates all day, I rarely feel as though I’m alone.

Dean: Yeah, thank goodness for the Internet. But it’s still not quite like sitting down with someone and having a beer, or in our case a panini sandwich and Diet Coke. Is there a lot of demand for PR? Is there much competition?

Kathleen: A few years ago, I would have said that PR is dying. And traditional media relations is certainly changing, simply because the consumers of media have changed so much. The minority of Americans now get their news from the big three networks. More people trust bloggers than politicians and “the mainstream media.”

So, with dozens and dozens of traditional media outlets going out of business, I’d have said that PR is doomed. But now, we as PR professionals have the ability to take our client’s story directly to consumers, bypassing the “traditional media” in many cases. Our clients still need us to help tell their stories … but again, the distribution channels are changing, and we have to change to keep up.

Yes, as with every discipline in marketing, there’s a lot of competition. Marketing can be something of a “squishy” major, so it attracts a lot of people who aren’t quite sure what they want out of life.

There’s plenty of competition among the mediocre. But the best people in any field can always find work. I strive to be the best, and get outlandish results for clients. Results speak louder than any resume.

Dean: I know what you mean. Seems like some of the worst people at marketing are those with marketing degrees. Probably because marketing teachers generally have no real world experience. Hope that doesn’t offend the marketing majors out there.

One more question. What would you say to a writer who wanted to get into your line of work?

Kathleen: Start paying attention to the print stories that you find compelling, and try to figure out why. Is it the headline that caught your eye? The angle? The quotes? The “moral” of the story? Once you understand what hooks you as a reader, you’ll start to understand how you can help your client meet their goals.

And read good journalism. Read it voraciously. Learn how journalists write. And learn how to tell a story 10,000 words at a time, 400 words and even 140 characters at a time.

Dean: Kathleen, I’ve learned a ton talking to you. And I hope we’ll have a chance to get together again sometime. As a friend of mine says, you’re cool beans.

Related posts:

1. B2B copywriting: an interview with Pete Savage
2. Email copywriting: an interview with Ivan Levison
3. SEO copywriting: an interview with Heather Lloyd Martin

Pete Savage is an example of why I always say that freelancing is more secure than having a job.

Pete turned losing a job into a freelance business in record time, as you’ll see in a moment.

When we talked, Pete shared his thoughts on the unique world of B2B copywriting.

***

Dean: How long have you been a freelance copywriter? What’s your story?

Pete: I’ve been a freelancer for about 8 years now. I tell people I was pushed “backward and blindfolded” into the world of freelancing … which means I got fired.

Turfed on a Friday morning, and by Monday I had my first freelance gig. And the market for freelancers is even better now that it was then. I was a copywriter in a small ad agency — that’s the place I was let go from. Prior to that, I had worked in the corporate world in sales and marketing jobs.

Dean: Fired on Friday and freelancing on Monday? That must be a world record! So now you specialize in B2B or Business-to-Business copywriting. Just in case someone doesn’t know what that is, can you give us a brief definition?

Pete: When you or I purchase a computer or clothing or accounting services, those are B2C, meaning Business-to-Consumer transactions. B2B, or Business-to-Business, transactions don’t involve consumers; these are purchases that take place between businesses.

The small business owner in your city’s downtown (as well as Microsoft headquarters in Seattle, for that matter) buys office equipment and cleaning services and accounting services from OTHER business. Those are B2B transactions. So B2B copywriting involves writing marketing materials for companies who sell their goods and services to other businesses.

Dean: Why did you choose to specialize in B2B?

Pete: I have a business degree, and a background in B2B sales ( I was a sales rep for Pitney Bowes in a former life) so I understood and enjoyed the business-to-business environment before becoming a copywriter.

Dean: How does B2B pay compare to other freelance projects?

Pete: The pay is excellent. There is one exception … the royalties that you can earn in consumer copywriting (primarily for large direct mail projects) don’t exist in B2B.

Dean: Some freelancers work with local clients. Others, like me, work with people scattered all over the world. How about you?

Pete: Yes, my clients are all over North America.

Dean: I would imagine you have a lot of U.S. clients since you work with technology companies. Are there any advantages or disadvantages to being located in Canada?

Pete: Yes, I have a mix of U.S. and Canadian clients and I’ve always viewed it as a totally seamless thing. I don’t really make the distinction between the two because our economies, our cultures, our industries are quite homogeneous.

The only time I notice it, really, is when spellcheck hassles me about writing about my neighbour’s favourite colour. So then I have to localize my behaviour.

Dean: I have a client with Dutch branding and I have to purposely use those sort of spellings. People in the U.S. consider them somewhat exotic. Give us an idea of the type of projects you routinely get from clients?

Pete: It really does run the gambit. Taking the past year as an example, I’ve written everything … direct mail, email marketing, case studies, online video, microsites. Often times I’ll do conceptual / consulting work leading up to the copy which is fun.

Dean: Yes, it’s always nice when you can help develop the concepts rather than have them handed to you. It’s not only more profitable, it can also give you more control over the final message. In your opinion, has social marketing made an impact on B2B?

Pete: Yes, more and more clients are talking about it. It’s in the early stages, so lots of B2B companies are still hesitant, still cautious, but you’ll see it become more prevalent. A year from now, most B2B marketers will have a social media presence.

Dean: Do you need any special education, skills, or experience to do B2B copywriting work?

Pete: You don’t need a business degree or formal skills, but an understanding of how B2B marketing works is a must. There are nuances in terms of the sales force and the marketing department in B2B, how they differ, how they interact, how one supports the other, etc.

It’s not rocket science, but you need a solid understanding of the B2B world in order to be valuable to your clients. You can either get that understanding through your work experience, which many people already have, or by studying the industry… books, blogs, industry publications, etc. AWAI also has programs that teach these essentials. Full disclosure: I’m a contributor and co-creator of some of AWAI’s B2B programs.

Dean: This might sound like an odd question, but is B2B fun? I do a lot of B2B and think it’s a blast. But to some people, it sounds a little dry.

Pete: Haha … yes, I think people might think that because there has always been so much dry corporate marketing stuff out there. But a good copywriter will help their clients get past that, and get down to the real story, the real essence of the products and services.

Really you’re helping your clients do a better job of selling and marketing their business, which is very fun and rewarding.

Dean: What is the hardest thing about writing B2B copy?

Pete: For me, it was harder years ago when I was new to it, trying to get comfortable writing naturally instead of all corporate-collar-and-tie like. Once you get past that and get really comfortable writing like a human being, writing B2B gets much easier.

Dean: What do you do when you’re not being a B2B genius? Any sports, hobbies, obsessions?

Pete: My latest work-related obsession is helping solopreneurs build thriving businesses. Since writing a book on the subject of freelancing, it’s become a key focus of mine. I love speaking, teaching, writing, blogging about the topic. I’m also blessed with a happy and growing family, so right now my non-work time is spent with my wife and kids, which I love.

And at this particular moment in time (June 2010) I’m regularly sneaking away from work to watch England in the World Cup.

Dean: Yeah, but don’t those freakin’ vuvuzelas drive you nuts? Sheesh. Speaking of nuts, does your dog Ringo help out around the office?

Pete: I wish! If I could channel Ringo’s energy bursts (he’s a Weimaraner) into helping me out around the office I’d be 10 times more productive!

Dean: If you could give freelancers just one solid piece of advice for writing great B2B copy, what would it be?

Pete: Avoid the stiff, vague, lifeless corporate speak that you see so much of, and help your clients better connect with their audience by writing in a natural, human, conversational style.

Dean: I think that’s good advice whether you’re writing B2B or B2C or anything, really. Thanks for taking the time to chat with me, Pete.

Related posts:

1. PR copywriting: an interview with Kathleen Hanover
2. Email copywriting: an interview with Ivan Levison
3. SEO copywriting: an interview with Heather Lloyd Martin

Look up the phrase “search engine marketing” in the dictionary and you’ll see a photo of Heather Lloyd Martin.

Okay, not really. But her photo ought to be there since she’s a pioneer in SEO Copywriting.

I asked Heather if she’d share her wisdom with us and was thrilled when she said yes.

***

Dean: How long have you been a freelance copywriter? Everyone has a story. What’s yours?

Heather: Once upon a time, back in 1995 or so, I was working at a “real job” and hated it. My dream was to be a writer — and for whatever reason, I wanted to be an online writer (and no, I don’t know why working online seemed so fun to be back then, but it did).

So, I quit my job, bought a new computer, and set up my website. Back in the day, there were a number of us on a discussion forum called Women Talk Business (WTB), and we often worked with and for each other. One thing led to another, and suddenly I was writing SEO content, way back before anyone really paid attention to SEO copywriting.

Then, I started a newsletter with Jill Whalen (another WTB member) called RankWrite … which was the first newsletter to discuss writing and how it related to SEO. Suddenly, both of us found ourselves on the Search Engine Strategies conference circuit. And the rest is history. It’s been a wild, fun ride, and I am incredibly grateful for every second of it.

Dean: You specialize in SEO copywriting. Can you explain what that means?

Heather: SEO copywriting is writing for two masters, search engines and prospects. Unlike “traditional” online writing, SEO content writing (SEO copywriting is the more recognized term) contains well-researched keyphrases that are woven throughout the copy.

The writing structure is designed to do two things. First, engage the target audience, and compel them to take the next action step. Second, “help” the search engines find the page highly relevant for a keyphrase query, which results in a higher search engine ranking.

So, SEO copywriting is a combination of technical, geeky strategy and laser-targeted persuasive storytelling, paired with some killer writing skills.

Dean: There seems to be some confusion about SEO copy. Is it a different kind of writing, a skill, or what?

Heather: That’s a good question. The “roots” of SEO copywriting go back to what we know about direct-response, readability, and usability. At the same time, writing for search engines is quite a different skill set. It takes a special kind of writer to “get” how to research keyphrases, figure out how to insert them into the copy, develop a fantastic, clickable title, and create an overarching strategy.

I’ve trained enough journalists and “old school” copywriters to know that even the most experienced writers tend to have a learning curve. But once they master how to do it and see how keyphrases fit into the writing equation, they become masters of the craft.

Dean: Of all the specialties out there, why did you choose SEO?

Heather: It chose me. I had been working as a online copywriter prior to starting my SEO copywriting career. Then, as SEO started to become a tad bit more mainstream (this would be the late 90′s), I was already positioned as the leading expert in the field.

Turns out that I really enjoy doing it. It’s a great mixture of creative and technical. I love figuring out what will make people buy/convert, and I enjoy the geeky aspects of programming and keyphrase selection.

Dean: What sort of things do you write for your clients? What do clients want most?

Heather: Right now, clients are clamoring for training. Granted, they may have pages they need written, and I love conducting “content makeovers” where we completely revise a site’s messaging, tone, and feel. However, clients with on-staff copywriters have realized that bringing their SEO copywriting in-house makes sense. It saves them money. It allows them to control the writing experience. They don’t have to rely on a freelancer or an army of freelancers. I recommend training often. It’s a smart business move.

I also certify a number of freelancers and in-house copywriters through my SEO Copywriting Certification program. That has really taken over the majority of my time, and I love every minute of it.

Dean: Describe your typical work day.

Heather: Every morning starts with a Starbucks latte. Without fail. Otherwise, I don’t feel “normal.”

I typically have a lot of email waiting for me first thing in the morning, so I get up and start tackling that first. After that, I hit my boot camp exercise class and sweat for an hour. I used to resist exercise first thing in the morning, as I felt it took away from “work time.” Now, I know that I’m a much calmer person when I work out.

I’m still a very active writer and I usually have at least one project going on per day, whether that means creating a blog post, working on a client webpage, or developing content for my SEO Copywriting Certification training. In between, I monitor my SEO copywriting LinkedIn and Facebook accounts and send out some tweets.

Of course, there are those “travel weeks” when I’m on a plane. I could be heading to an industry conference, or maybe an in-house training. Soon, I’ll be holding in-person SEO Copywriting Certification seminars, so that will add to my travel load. But that’s only one week a month now, rather than traveling two+ weeks every month. That’s much more manageable!

Dean: With the search engines getting smarter all the time, do you think SEO will be as important years from now?

Heather: Yes. It’s been important for the last 12+ years, and I think it will still be important. Granted, SEO (and the various opportunities associated with it) will change and morph and evolve. That’s OK. Smart SEO copywriters can keep up with the latest and change their service mix accordingly.

And something else to consider: Good, customer-centered writing has always been crucial in every medium (direct mail, email, journalism, copywriting.) Writing to sell, persuade, and inform has been around for many, many years.

Dean: How is SEO related to social marketing? Do you SEO copy for Twitter, Facebook, and other social tools?

Heather: It’s a different medium, yes, but it’s all about the writing. For instance, I often weave keyphrases into my tweets, whether it’s a hashtag, or I use a keyphrase within the body of a tweet. The challenge/opportunity is to tweak your messaging for different marketing mediums. What’s appropriate for Twitter and Facebook is not as appropriate for a corporate website, although when both work together, it can be a powerful combination.

For instance, Alaska Airlines has their corporate site, plus they tweet frequently and often handle their customer service issues via Twitter. They leverage the immediacy of Twitter with the “tried and true” sales copy on their site. It’s a good mix.

Dean: Can I use “SEO” as a verb as I did in that last question?

Heather: It’s more commonly referred to as “optimizing,” as in, “Do you optimize copy?” But certainly, the term “SEO” is used in many weird and wondrous ways. Just like “Google.” Who knew that it would be used as a verb?

Dean: What is the hardest thing about writing SEO copy?

Heather: For me, SEO copywriting isn’t hard. However, I think the biggest challenge (and I use the word loosely, because it’s not a huge challenge) is client education. Whether the client is a mom and pop, or a Fortune 50 brand, they’re very attached to their copy (as they should be.) They “know” the best keyphrases to use. So, SEO copywriting takes them out of their immediate comfort zone.

I find that a good amount of my time is spent educating clients about how we may need to revisit their customer persona, or why their main “money keyphrase” may not actually be the best choice, or why I’m adding those “pesky keyphrases” to the content. Once the client understands the process, they’re fine!

Dean: What would you say is the biggest mistake novices make when they’re trying to write copy for the search engines?

Heather: “Newbie” SEO copywriters typically “keyword-stuff” their first few attempts. They don’t mean to, it’s just that they’re trying to write copy in a brand new way and they don’t realize that they’ve inserted their keyphrases a few too many times. Once they realize that they’ve overused their keyphrases, they then will often pull back too much and underuse them.

Finally, after some trial and error, the copywriter figures out the perfect balance. I always suggest that new copywriters work with a SEO copywriting mentor/consultant. That way, someone else can review your copy, tell you when you’re using too many or too few keyphrases, and help you shorten your learning curve.

Dean: Okay, I assume you’re not doing SEO copywriting all the time. What other interests or activities do you have in your free time?

Heather: I work out. A lot. Other than that, I LOVE travel, reading and being outdoors.

Dean: Tell us something most people don’t know about you.

Heather: I have my highly outgoing public persona, and that represents a part of my personality. At the same time, I love being home, reading books, hanging out with my hubby, and embracing my introverted side. I can spend days being by myself and not talking to anyone, especially right after travel. My friends call it “hermiting.”

Dean: You sound a little like me. I like spending time with people, then I turn into a hermit for a while. If you could give freelancers one good tip for writing SEO copy, what would it be?

Heather: Always focus on the reader’s needs before the search engine’s. That is, if you’re reading the copy and it sounds funny because of all the keyphrases, don’t leave the keyphrases in there to “help the page rank better.” Delete some. SEO copywriting is more than just getting a high ranking. It’s more important that prospects are drawn into your “story,” whether that’s an article, sales page, or blog post, and take the action that you want them to take.

Dean: Thanks, Heather. I think we’re all a little more SEO savvy now.

Related posts:

1. Web copywriting: an interview with James Chartrand
2. B2B copywriting: an interview with Pete Savage
3. Email copywriting: an interview with Ivan Levison

I’ve been interviewing fellow copywriters about their writing specialty. Their responses have been so fun, I wanted to get in on the action.

So James at Men With Pens conducted an interview with me about my specialty, direct mail copywriting. Part 1 is below. Part 2 is over at James’ blog.

***

James: Everyone wants to hear how we all got started — what was your start in copywriting? How far do you go back?

Dean: I go waaay back to the Stone Age when writers delivered copy by beating on a hollow log. Okay, maybe not that way back. I’ve been writing copy of one kind or another since 1985 when I got my start in radio then moved into a TV producer job.

I’m infamous for a series of Dukes of Hazzard promos (in which I appeared as Luke Duke) with lots of hoots and hollers that, apparently, annoyed the crap out of people but got them to pay attention during commercial breaks.

Back in those days, I didn’t use a hollow log, but I did use a Blue IBM Selectric typewriter. Clack clack clack! When I went freelance I got the original IBM PC with a green screen. Look at that photo. Cutting edge, folks.

James: Was the decision to be a freelance copywriter a conscious choice? And have you ever regretted it?

Dean: I was more or less conscious at the time, but really I started out of desperation. You see, I graduated with a teaching degree and two majors in English and Science. After my radio and TV gigs, I tried teaching in Las Vegas for exactly 3 weeks and 3 days. I hated it. I quit. I just piled my books on the desk and walked out.

Then I came back home to a seriously annoyed wife who had already packed up everything because she thought we were moving to Vegas.

I had no job and no clue, so I called a former client from my TV job to ask about work and he flat out said, “No way I’m hiring you. Forget it. No chance.” The next day, he called back and said, “Actually, I could use your help. Let’s talk.”

And no, I’ve never regretted it. I was never suited for a 9 to 5 job. I hate ties and like putting my feet up on my desk when I’m thinking.

James: You’re mostly known as a direct mail copywriter. What’s the difference between that and regular ol’ copywriting?

Dean: Direct mail is a top-of-the-food chain medium in the world of direct marketing. It’s expensive to produce and clients demand that every mailing make money. So your head’s on the chopping block. You either write a winner or you’re fired. You’re either a genius or an idiot. Direct mail takes a high level of skill and a big set of brass balls. That scares a lot of writers.

James: Are you a yellow highlighter kind of copywriter? You know — those sales letter with screaming stand-out text?

Dean: I know why you asked that question. There’s this idea out there that direct mail is outdated and only works on a few “suckers,” and today’s writer’s are just too cool and hip for that sort of thing. But let me tell you, letters with highlighter and handwriting and typewriter fonts WORK. I’ve literally tested pretty stuff vs. ugly stuff and the ugly stuff wins every single time.

You know why some people think it doesn’t work? Because they do internet advertising where they’ve spent 3 years cultivating a following and have the luxury of being laid back and cool and hip. With direct mail, you often have one shot to sell something. You have to sell it now. Today. It’s a whole different ballgame.

James: Many of my peers and colleagues tend to look down on sales copy, considering it kind of spammy. How do you feel about that?

Dean: Them’s fightin’ words. You wanna step outside and settle this?

Well, your peers and colleagues are wrong. In this business, you just do what works. It’s not about personal preference. It’s about results. Of course, you have to adjust the tone for your particular audience, so sales copy doesn’t always scream. Sometimes it flatters. Or frightens. Or angers.

A good copywriter can get into your head and turn your feelings and self-image into sales. So if your peers are all snotty about the delusion that they don’t respond to sales copy, not only are they naïve, they’ve just given a good copywriter the opening he needs to reach into their wallet. The moment you think you’re too smart to be sold, you’re about to be sold.

James: What’s the best job you ever worked on, and why?

Dean: I don’t know that there was just one job I’d call the best. But I did have a client I’d consider the best. I won’t name names, but this client was open to any idea I had and would let me both plan marketing programs and create them, which I did for many years. With that kind of freedom, I could test all sorts of things and find out what works. It was fun and profitable. A great relationship.

James: What was the worst job you ever worked on?

Dean: I had this client who wanted a simple little insert. That’s basically a small sheet of paper with an advertising message that you insert into a piece of direct mail, such as a monthly bill. I wrote the copy and hired a design firm to do the layout. But the client kept asking for more and more until we ended up with 9 inserts. Plus endless changes that made no sense.

It seemed to go on forever. A little $3,000 project ballooned into $11,000, most of which came from the designers. The client was furious, not understanding that he was the one who turned the project upside down. I’d worked with him before and he was a total control freak, and not in a good way. So once I got payment, I dropped him. Life’s too short to work with people like that. So I don’t.

James: What is the single biggest mistake most copywriters make today, in your humble opinion?

Dean: They don’t understand the point of their copy, which in most cases is to sell something or make something happen. They approach copy as a writing project when really it’s a selling project.

James: Why do you feel that sales copy — or even copywriting in general — commands higher rates than … oh, blog posting or article writing?

Dean: As I’ve already said, copywriting is about selling, not writing. So if all you offer is well-crafted words, you just don’t get paid very well. There are a zillion writers who can create a series of great sentences. But there just aren’t that many writers who can write words that motivate, persuade, and sell. Good copywriting is about making people DO something.

Think of it this way …  about a hundred people created gorgeous designs for a flying machine. But they weren’t worth much because none of them got off the ground. The Wright Brothers created an idea that worked. That was worth something.

James: Do you feel that being a top copywriter is a learned skill or does it require some innate talent?

Dean: Oh, I think there’s a certain talent involved. But it’s mostly learned. The trick is thinking about the work in the right way.

Back in college I thought I was brilliant because I could write clever stories with big words and flowery language. But when I got into copywriting, every job I had was about using my writing skill to make something practical happen, like go to a store or call a phone number. You know real quick if you succeed or fail. So your attitude changes.

I think you become good when you have enough of the right kind of experience. You become bad if you have enough of the wrong kind of experience.

James: How can online businesses benefit from direct mail? Isn’t that an offline kind of thing?

Dean: There used to be a time when people thought online and offline were two different worlds. Some still do. But what many people are finally discovering is that real people live in the real world. And in that world, those people do online and offline things seamlessly. You can walk into a store and order from their online catalog. You can go online and order a product that is physically delivered to your home. Online and offline are both part of the same world.

So you can use direct mail (or radio or print) to drive people to a website to try something, buy something, or sign up for something. This is common today. Actually, radio is fantastic for driving people to websites. More than half the radio spots I’ve created tell people to go to a URL for a free trial or sample.

James: We all get direct mail sales letters these days — seems like everyone wants money for something. How many of those letters go in the garbage, you think?

Dean: Most of them. Maybe 98 to 99 percent. In fact, I wrote an article about this where I show why and how direct mail gets trashed. But the same thing happens with ANY kind of advertising. How many radio commercials do you respond to? How about TV spots? Print ads? Emails? Banner ads?

Direct mail just seems to be wasteful because you have a pile of paper to throw away when you’re finished sorting your mail. But it’s often far more efficient than other media because you can target it to likely buyers. Even with all of today’s alternative forms of marketing, it remains the one and only way to reach every living soul with an address. You can’t do that with anything other medium.

James: How does that trashcan conversion compare to online sales letters?

Dean: I’ll tell you what I tell all my clients: it depends. There’s no magic conversion rate for online or offline. Every type of product and every audience is different. There are some people who make a fortune with a ½ percent conversion. There are others who can’t make ends meet with 4% conversion. It just depends.

But if you have to have an answer, most people say that 2% online is good and 2% with direct mail is good. I don’t think those numbers mean anything, though. The real numbers are all over the place.

James: Name me three of the most influential words in copywriting today.

Dean: Free. You. Guaranteed. You don’t even know what I’m selling and you already want it, don’t you? C’mon. Admit it. It’s free. It’s all for you. And it’s totally guaranteed. You just gotta have it.

James: A lot of writers feel strongly about sales copy and what it represents.  After all, you’re writing words that manipulate and influence people to hand over their money, right?

Dean: I’m detecting a pattern here. Are writers really THAT turned off by sales copy? Listen … if a copywriter whines about having to “sell” things, to me that’s like a boxer complaining that he has to hit people. If you can’t do it, get out of the ring.

To read part 2 of this interview, go to Men With Pens where James asks me about ethics, writer’s block, and weird stuff that’s sitting on my desk.

Related posts:

1. Web copywriting: an interview with James Chartrand
2. Email copywriting: an interview with Ivan Levison
3. SEO copywriting: an interview with Heather Lloyd Martin

I’ve known Ivan Levison for many years. Ivan is a prime example of how you can carve out a niche for yourself and make a nice living by staying focused on what you do best.

In Ivan’s case, this is writing email for clients large and small. In fact, if you Google “email copywriting,” Ivan is the first result you get.

Recently, I talked to Ivan about his copywriting business. Just like the email he writes for clients, his answers are crisp and to-the-point.

***

Dean: How long have you been a freelance copywriter? If you’re like me, you used to send copy to clients by carrier pigeon.

Ivan: I’ve been a freelancer for 31 years. Yes, I used to drive down and see clients and read them my copy then make another trip for the rewrites. The fax and then email changed all that. I’d say these technologies have doubled my income.

Dean: Tell us a little about your background. Seems like all the good copywriters I know took an interesting path to their current profession. I used to be a TV producer for NBC, for example.

Ivan: MANY years ago I was a teacher and enjoyed it but wasn’t making any money. I read Jerry Della Femina’s terrific advertising book, From Those Wonderful Folks Who Gave You Pearl Harbor: Front Line Dispatches from the Advertising Wars, and I thought that would be fun. So I broke into advertising as a junior copywriter at a big San Francisco agency.

Dean: Your primary specialty is email copywriting. Is email still a thriving marketing medium? Seems like all the talk (or hype) is about social media these days.

Ivan: Yes. Email still is thriving. Email copywriting is about half of my business. I don’t really get into the social media thing. I’m sure it’s
important but I stick to my niche!

Dean: When a client hires you to write email, what does that involve? Is it just the email message or does it also include other elements?

Ivan: It’s actually the email messaging only. I of course provide subject lines and a landing page if it’s required.

Dean: How is writing email different from writing a print ad or a direct mail letter?

Ivan: It’s a matter of the environment. direct mail and email share many crucial similarities. But there are BIG differences too,
and if you write both exactly the same way and expect
great results, you could be in trouble.

Dean: Can you give us an example?

Ivan: Sure. Some time ago, TigerSoftware sent Word Finder Plus
customers a letter by snail mail that started this way:

Dear Registered User: Consider this: No two words in the English language have precisely the same meaning. That’s the beauty of the language — and the challenge … If you write letters, reports, proposals, speeches, ads, articles, essays — anything — the private offer on the all-new Word Finder Plus is being made especially for
you.

Now, on paper, this lead-in could work just fine. In email, it would crash and burn.

Dean: Why?

Ivan: Because when you pick up a letter in your hand, you’re at your desk in the office, or sitting comfortably at home. You’re somewhat at ease, somewhat receptive and relaxed. You’re in your “let’s go through the mail” zone.

Sure, you throw out the junk mail. But you’ll sometimes give a letter 10 seconds (a LOT of time!) to see what it’s about. This means that a letter’s lead-in paragraph, like the one above, at least has a shot.

But what about email? Do people go through it the same way they do paper letters? As they say in New York, “fuhGEDaboudit!” Their in-box is jammed and full of spam. They’re under the gun and moving quickly.

If someone starts an email by telling them that “no two words in the
English language have precisely the same meaning. That’s the beauty of the language — and the challenge … ” they’re history!

Dean: So email copywriting demands that you grab people’s attention quickly.

Ivan: Right. Then move IMMEDIATELY TO THE OFFER. Here’s an example of an email lead-in that I wrote for Intuit (to promote the old Quicken Deluxe):

Interested in tracking stocks and mutual funds? Want to spend more time investing and less time searching for data?

You need INVESTOR INSIGHT! Now you can try it absolutely FREE FOR 30 DAYS without risk or obligation!

See what I mean? In email you have to jump in very quickly!

Dean: That’s nice work. Clean, quick, and to-the-point. Why did you choose to specialize in email?

Ivan: It’s hot and there’s a demand for people who know how to make it work. I also enjoy working in short forms. More fun than writing War and Peace.

Dean: I like writing radio for the same reason. It’s short work. Other than email, do you have other specialties?

Ivan: I write letters, direct mail packages, and Home Page copy. That’s it.

Dean: I admire how focused you are. I’m reading a lot about integrating email with Twitter, Facebook, and other social media. What’s your take on that?

Ivan: Not my area I’m afraid. It should be but I’m just not into it.

Dean: In my experience, the real power of email is driving people to websites. Is that the case for you as well?

Ivan: Yes, but also getting people to download guides, White Papers, reports, etc. That’s a lot of what I do.

Dean: What is the most difficult part of writing email for your clients?

Ivan: I honestly don’t think any part of it is that tough. Not after 31 years of experience.

Dean: Where do people generally go wrong with their email? What’s the most common mistake?

Ivan: Handling the email as if it’s a letter. For the most part you have to keep emails relatively short and crisp. No one has time to read a tremendous amount, though this is not always true. It depends on the category.

Dean: How do you get clients? Direct mail? Word of mouth? Cold calls?

Ivan: A LOT of my business comes from my website. I have high Google rankings and that is invaluable. I also publish a monthly newsletter which is a great source of business.

Dean: [laughs]You gotta love the Internet. I have first page rankings for “direct mail copywriter” and related searches. I guess great minds think alike, eh? Ivan, when you’re not wowing clients with your email magic, what do you do? Any hobbies or enthusiasms?

Ivan: No special hobbies I’m afraid. My business is my hobby.

Dean: If you could give freelancers just one solid piece of advice for writing effective email, what would it be?

Ivan: Keep it short, lively, and to the point. We’re writing emails, not letters.

Dean: Great tip. Thanks for spending a little time with us, Ivan. As always, you’ve been an inspiration.

Related posts:

1. Direct mail copywriting: an interview with Dean Rieck
2. B2B copywriting: an interview with Pete Savage
3. PR copywriting: an interview with Kathleen Hanover

This is the first of a series of interviews with copywriters who specialize in a particular brand of copywriting.

First up, James Chartrand from Men With Pens. James lives in Canada and writes web copy for an international roster of clients.

In our short interview, we discussed some of the ins and outs of web copywriting and James’ quirky sense of humor.

***

Dean: How long have you been writing web copy? How did you get your start?

James: I began my career in early 2006 — completely by necessity, really. At the time, I had absolutely no money, and I needed it badly. Winter was coming, there were no jobs to be had, and I had kids to feed. I found out that people would pay me to write … a whole $1.50 for 500 words.

So I wrote. I took the hard knocks and learned the lessons. I hustled like mad and kept building and building until… Well, here I am today. I never expected things to turn out as fantastically as they did, and frankly, I’m still working hard at reaching even bigger goals.

Dean: There are dozens of copywriting specialties. Why did you choose to write for online clients?

James: The choice of writing for online clients was simply because the work was there to be had. Offline, I live in a French-speaking small-town region, and there isn’t much economical development – hence, no writing work, or at least certainly not enough to earn a decent living.

Online? The world’s my oyster. I can help business owners in Australia get the results they want, or I can work with people in Africa to build a business, or I can consult with those in the United States and help them achieve a larger customer base. I can work anywhere I please, with no boundaries.

Dean: Would you consider web copywriting a specialty or is it similar to other types of copywriting?

James: I think that copywriting tends to share the same basic principles no matter what the specialty. The person who receives a direct sales letter at home is typically influenced and persuaded by the same strategies used online for web copy.

But I do think that web copy is special. Consumer behavior on the web is a little different — it’s far faster. It needs to hook quickly. People read differently. There are visual distractions. The page can’t be as long or people get bored and click away — in seconds. You’re reaching through a screen to someone sitting on the other side, drawing them into your world for a moment. That’s not an easy task at all, which is why I think web copy takes a special breed of writer.

[laughs] Well, maybe that’s the same for offline copywriting as well. We’re all special breeds, aren’t we?

Dean: Back in the old days, everyone had what we used to call a “brochure site.” Basically, you’d take your print copy and slap it onto a web page. How have things changed since then?

James: Today’s business sites have become far more interactive. They don’t just give information; they invite people in and sit them down. They don’t just tell them what the business does and its store hours or how to get there. Now you can visit all sorts of sites and learn not only what the company sells, but how it sells this and why it sells this and who else buys this and whether it’s good or not good and what makes it so.

Sites aren’t about telling. They’re about welcoming new people, offering them a glimpse behind the scenes and giving them a taste of the company’s personality. Sites (and web copy) build a relationship, using personality and the business beliefs to reach people where it counts — and to make them loyal customers, because they share those beliefs.

You can really do anything these days with the business-client relationship. You can teach and educate, you can share and create change, you can provoke thought and move people to take action on all sorts of things. You can reach the housewife in Brazil or the farmer in Saskatchewan or the entrepreneur in New Zealand — and you can change their life almost instantly. That’s pretty spectacular.

Dean: You’re kinda famous for your sense of humor. Is it important to have a good attitude in your business? Because some writers are a little … um … cranky.

James: If you don’t mind me saying so, most writers tend to be a little lofty, thinking they have some special gift and how dare anyone say a word against them. That’s kind of silly, in my eyes — why have attitude with the very people who are going to help you earn a decent living?

I do believe that the good writers — the really good ones – have natural talent and a special gift beneath their skills, and that’s what makes them stand out from the rest. But even those good writers need to have a good attitude, or they’re going to end up divas losing jobs.

I think that regardless of my natural talent and gifts, I’m here to make someone’s life better — not just in results and sales, but in their everyday life. I like to make clients smile, or have readers grin. I like to enjoy my job and have fun with it, and I think people feel drawn to that happiness and fun feeling.

Eeech, who knows. You’re asking hard questions. [grins]

Dean: Web copywriters tend to write a lot of things other than just copy for websites. What are some of the most in-demand items clients want?

James: Taglines. Clients agonize over them, and I can’t begin to tell you how often I’m asked for help to come up with a snazzy tagline. I suppose I brought it on myself by showing off my talents over at Copyblogger.

Banner ad copy has to be next in line. It’s not easy to come up with a winning message that’s only five words long and that sits in a tiny square. Well, actually, it is easy to come up with five words — but to come up with five words that make people want to click that little square? Fun times!

Dean: What would you say is the biggest challenge for web writers?

James: Hmmm … There are a few, actually.

Being professional and providing top-quality customer service is one of them. I land a lot of clients simply because they know my customer service is one of the best to be had, and they’re a little relieved to discover that the rumors are true — there really are professional writers out there who do a great job AND who are easy to work with. Great service goes a long, long way towards turning a lead into a sale.

Another challenge is deciding where to set rates. This is a huge struggle for web writers, because what’s fair pay for Canada might be a king’s ransom in Thailand might be slave wages for Australia and so on. There are no rules, guidelines or gauges for new writers, and figuring out what rate to charge is a challenge. But with time, you come to settle on a rate that’s right for your skill levels and the results you get for the businesses you work with.

Oh, a last challenge: Getting clients to understand that the little five-word tagline they want me to whip up at the drop of a hat is worth way more than they believe it is. “But it’s just five words!” Yes, but those five words take years of experience and knowledge to create if you want them to really work for your business!

Dean: In your experience, where do writers typically go wrong when writing a web page?

James: Where should I begin? [laughs] Yeah… Interest value has got to be the big one — most web pages I read are incredibly boring and do nothing to stir the emotions of potential clients. It’s generic and stiff, with language that isn’t real.

I think that’s a big one right there — it can’t just be words on a screen — it has to be emotionally compelling. It has to be written in a way that makes it sound like it’s from a real person, with real personality and real feelings. And those words have to be delivered to a person on the other side of the monitor who’s just as real. That person reading the web page has very real needs and desires and goals, and it’s crucial to reach that person to make him or her feel something. Because if that reader feels nothing … CLICK! He’s gone.It’s that simple.

Dean: Do clients want web writers to handle social media as well? If so, how?

James: Hm. I haven’t had much request for that in a while — the requests I do get, I turn down, because that’s just not my area of specialty, and I don’t want to dilute my skills into other areas like marketing and promotion.

There are much better people for the job, like those who specialize in social media and who know exactly how to tweet and build followings and use Facebook and do all sorts of funky relationship marketing tasks. That’s their job, and it’s a completely different specialty than mine.

Dean: What’s the air speed velocity of an unladen swallow?

James: Well, as a rule of thumb, the speed of a flying creature is roughly 3 times frequency times amplitude, or (U ≈ 3fA). But I was never very good in math. Which is why I became a writer, of course.

[Giving the wrong answer, James is flung into the Gorge of Eternal Peril, but climbs right out again to continue answering questions about less dangerous subjects.]

Dean: What does a writer have to know about design to write effectively for the web?

James: Design gives an instant visual impression of mood and emotion. A black and silver site “feels” slick — so warm, fluffy copy on that site is going to jar the reader and create a mismatched feeling. Likewise, a bright, colorful, English garden imagery paired with bold, authoritative writing will just come off as all wrong.

When you know the visual impact that’s being created, you can style the words and personality of the copy to match — and that makes the reader feel right at home.

Dean: Give us your quick take on SEO and web copy. What do writers have to know?

James: Never write for search engines — always write for people. They can’t even realize that you’ve included keywords and optimized the web copy for search engines, or they’ll be put off by the obvious tactic and less likely to take action.

But do use those keywords — effectively, and in the proper locations to attract that search engine’s attention. Because if you don’t SEO your copy, it’ll never work hard to help bring visitors to your words, and they’ll never be able to read them. Or take action, of course.

Dean: There are over 200 million websites out there and growing. So, is demand increasing for web copy?

James: I’d word it a little differently — I’d say that demand for effective web copy is growing. Anyone can write — not everyone can make a business stand out from the competition and draw in new customers to turn them into loyal fans. That’s what matters at the end of the day to clients — their bottom line, profits and results.

I’d also say that demand in certain areas is decreasing. There used to be huge focus on creating volume content — articles and blogs, for example. But businesses are wising up now, and they’re beginning to see that more results can be had from one piece of stellar web copy than 30 pieces (or even 300 pieces) of average blog posts or articles.

Conveying value to readers is what counts. Not conveying volume.

Dean: Sometimes it seems like there are just as many “web” writers as websites. How is competition affecting the pay writers can expect to get?

James: Tough question. For sure, the varying pay rates writers promote affect what the next guy can earn for writing. And people do shop by price — but they make the purchase decision based on emotion, not logic and price tag.

That’s why it makes conveying value to potential customers crucial to earning a decent living. When a serious potential client can clearly see that this writer is the best person for the job because he or she can get the desired results — or even exceed expectations — then there’s rarely any hesitation on price.

Think about it this way, too: If a writer finds himself struggling to earn a decent pay, it might be a better idea to look to what he can do to increase his “wins” instead of blaming the other guy who charges half the rate.

Dean: What do you think about those nasty, evil crowdsourcing sites that make writers bid 5 cents an hour for work? Is that really the future as some people claim?

James: Doubtful. The really good writers aren’t going to go sign up and open accounts for a nickel an hour. They know their work is worth more, and they know that no nickel and dime writer is going to get the results they can. They’ll always have work, because they’ll be sought after by the clients who want real results measurable in cold hard cash.

Dean: If I asked you to give writers just one solid piece of advice for writing better web copy or making more money (or both), what would you say?

James: Improve. Improve, improve, improve, all the time, every day. Read books on influence and persuasion and practice the techniques. The money’ll follow, but you have to put in the hard work and time to learn how to create words that sell. Learn about sales and marketing and branding, and not from wannabe amateurs — get books by recognized authorities on the subject who can really teach you how to write words that make a difference — to your client, and to your wallet.

Dean: I’m so sorry, I asked for just one solid piece of advice. That’s more like four.

[James is again flung into the Gorge of Eternal Peril and the interview comes to an abrupt end.]

Related posts:

1. Direct mail copywriting: an interview with Dean Rieck
2. PR copywriting: an interview with Kathleen Hanover
3. SEO copywriting: an interview with Heather Lloyd Martin